#Roman historians

[jeannereames]

In some of your posts, you've said we can't believe the speeches in the original sources like Plutarch and Arrian. And I get it, that they wouldn't have ways to record exactly what people said, but wouldn't they try to get it at least close? Didn't orators publish their speeches, so they'd know what they said? Demosthenes published speeches about Philip, I know. And wouldn't readers back then get angry if they realized the writers were just making things up?

When it comes to ancient texts, particularly ancient historical texts, speeches, dialogue, and letters are especially problematic. Why? Authenticity.

As the asker indicated, a lack of recordings automatically problematizes this. But their memories were generally better. The real issue centers on ancient ideas of WHAT HISTORY WAS FOR.

Ancient historians were writing to entertain, as well as to educate, and promote their notions of how the past should be understood, often to school people in their present. “Cautionary tales,” if you will. Or models to emulate. When they do say where they got their information (frustratingly rarely), it’s as much to show off their education/how well-read they are, rather than to assure their readers they know what they’re talking about.

It’s critical to understand that ancient history was akin to modern creative nonfiction. I don’t say that to diss creative nonfiction (says the historian who also writes historical fiction). But it’s crucial to recognize it was nothing like modern academic history with footnotes, peer reviews, and fact-checks.*

In terms of preserved speeches (or orations), we have two types. The first (often forensic) were published after the fact by the orator himself.** Those are indeed their words, but their edited words. Unlike now, ancient speeches were typically composed aloud, not in writing. But at least speeches published by the orator are authentically their ideas, if not, perhaps, what was actually said (in court, the assembly, etc.). Nobody is putting words in their mouth.

By contrast, the orations and dialogue in our histories are the creations of the authors of those histories. Why goes back to the first (Greek) historians: Herodotos and Thucydides (and Xenophon). They set a pattern that later generations deliberately followed. All put speeches into the mouths of their major players. This is called oratio recta (direct speech), or what we’d call a quotation. Another form is oratio obliqua (indirect speech), or what we’d call a summary or a paraphrase. In general, the use of the former characterizes the Greek historians, while Roman historians preferred the latter. (There are any number of exceptions, however.)

Incidentally, these writers didn’t lie about it. Their readers/listeners realized it highly unlikely Herodotos knew what Darius or Xerxes said back in Susa or in the Persian camp, but they were there for the drama. Thucydides even admits (1.22.1) he has no clue what was said in the speeches he records from the Peloponnesian War, but he wrote what he thinks would have been proper for the situation.

Why make it up?

Orations were entertainment.

Just as modern fiction authors craft a story to forward themes and motifs, so also with ancient authors. When an author writes out a speech, PAY ATTENTION. It usually contains key points.

In our modern world with lowered attention spans, we can forget that people might listen to orations (especially longer ones) for fun.

Yet this is extraordinarily recent. For as long as we’ve been human, we’ve gathered to hear good storytellers and be inspired by good speakers. Sometimes the art of rhetoric is equated with intentional lying. That’s cynically silly. The art of rhetoric just means getting across your point clearly, and powerfully. A goodly chunk of Barack Obama’s appeal was his fine rhetoric. Ironically (and like it or not), the same can be said of Trump; the Maga crowd adores his word-salad “oration” style. Similarly, in some religious traditions, “good preachin’” is considered essential to good pastoring. And monologues, whether comedic, newsy, or folksy can develop cult followings, as The Rachel Maddow Show proves, or Stephen Colbert, or the much earlier “News from Lake Wobegon” from Prairie Home Companion (Garrison Keillor). You can probably name another half-dozen without breaking a sweat.

Because the oration was a form of entertainment in antiquity, many ancient authors sought to prove their own creative brilliance by writing speeches. That’s why you should never, ever, ever assume a verbatim speech in ANY Classical Greek or Roman text is what the speaker actually said. If you’re lucky, it may at least represent the gist. But it also might not. Dialogue is similar. They make it up.

With letters, one might think at least they could copy it—no need to remember. Like orations, letters were sometimes published by one of the authors, for posterity. (The letters of Cicero, or the Younger Pliny are good examples.) Yet the same principle applies. Letters were a way for an historian to display creative chops so “tweaked” letters were not uncommon, even if based on an original. And sometimes letters were invented whole-cloth, at need.

Yet there’s another issue with letters that moderns aren’t aware of: accidental forgeries.

How can a forgery be accidental?

It’s a rhetorical-school lesson that “escaped.”

A popular assignment for students was to write a letter (or oration) “in the style of ___ famous person,” or “as if from the point-of-view of ___ famous person.” Lessons weren’t just to learn how to turn a phrase, but also to instill proper morals. So, for instance, some ancient schoolboy’s essay prompt might be: “Illustrate pistos/fides (loyalty) in a letter from Alexander to his mother, Olympias.” To get a good grade, he had to show he knew something about Alexander, about proper pistos/fides, as well as how to write like a king.⸸

Some of these letters got confused later with the real thing. Remember, record-keeping was rather haphazard.

So…recorded speeches, dialogue, and letters in our ancient histories should be regarded much the same as you’d regard such in modern creative non-fiction: dramatization to increase reader interest.

——————————————-

* This isn’t to say ancient historians never critiqued each other; they most certainly did. Sometimes quite brutally—and from the beginning. Thucydides is our the second surviving Greek historian and he begins his history by, in his very first chapter, including an oblique criticism of Herodotos, who invented the discipline!

** Male gender used on purpose. Greek women weren’t allowed to make public speeches, and Hortensia was considered a weirdo who pissed off the Second Triumvirate. She certainly gave a speech, but Appian put words in her mouth—like most ancient writers.

⸸ Ironically, I do something very similar in my own classes on Alexander. We put him on trial for war crimes, and students write either as Alexander in his own defense, or as the prosecutor, whoever that might be (Demosthenes, the King of Tyre, a Persian noble, etc.). They must write their speech demonstrating the morals of the ancient world, not the modern, using the primary sources. To get a feel for it, they must read a couple Greek forensic speeches too, in order to understand how to properly frame their arguments. This allows them “to get into the heads” of the ancients themselves. It’s not only more fun, but more effective as a learning tool, imo.

[theromaboo]

I would kill to have Tacitus' uncanny ability to read people's minds in the past.

[theromaboo]

Suetonius didn't even say that Caligula appointed his horse as consul! Suetonius just said that Caligula thought about it, or planned to do it. Which is very different than actually doing it.

Maybe Caligula was making a "Lol I'm gonna make my horse consul," joke and people didn't get his humor or something. Or maybe Caligula genuinely was going to do it but then died before he got the chance (which is what Dio suggests, but then again, Dio).

It's not the same as "Caligula appointed his horse as consul. Allegedly." No ancient source says that (though Dio says a horse, likely Incitatus, was made a priest!). A more accurate way to say it is "Caligula planned to appoint his horse as consul. Allegedly."

No hate to you! None at all! I'm just interested in this after reading what David Woods had to say about it (I love David Woods). He believes that Caligula was just joking, and he also has a suggestion for why Caligula would've made this joke in the first place (making fun of the name of a consul called Asinius Celer).

Anyway, here's a funny little screenshot about Suetonius from this YouTube video because I feel like it's on topic.

saying "allegedly" every time i bring up a fact about any ancient figure, as in "Caligua appointed his horse consul. allegedly." because honestly we should all be worried about being sued for libel any time we use something like the Twelve Caesars as a source.

[sforzesco]

AKHENATEN

uhhh let's see. I combined some sketches I did of Nefertiti and Akhenaten and ended up somewhere here for an Akhenaten design. in my heart, it's for a comic but there's so much visual research I'd have to do before I could even think about approaching a comic. oof.

anyway moving on: Akhenaten was a childhood obsession! and then I moved onto other things, as one does, but then a couple months ago I decided to check out some books and now I have a headache.

Akhenaten, Ronald T. Ridley

[brainrotroulette]

still reeling from discovering today who Herodotus and the Romans thought Pan’s mother was 🤢

hint hint— she’s a certain loyal wife and queen of Ithaca and her name begins with a “Pen” and ends wit an “elope” 😭

@dkmbookworm and I were GAGGED

[artthatgivesmefeelings]

Amenhotep II New Kingdom, 18th Dynasty, reign of Amenhotep II Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek, Copenhagen, Denmark Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus? There are various theories. However, by examining the evidence found in ancient recorded history, it is surprisingly clear to establish just who the Exodus Pharaoh was. In "The Exodus Pharaoh EXPLAINED," Archeologist and Professor Joel Kramer shows us that Amenhotep II was indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

[timetravellingkitty]

Mark my words, soon there will be a booktok trend along the lines of "romance is the girl genre, only men read philosophy and sci-fi 😒 this book is about the Naxalite movement but I'm just a silly lil girl I don't know what they're talking about 😵 can someone explain Crime and Punishment so that the girls can understand?"

[bedlamsbard]

hello friends today we went to the Met and I was so excited in the Greek and Roman exhibit that @reena-jenkins got a spontaneous three hour lecture from me about the evolution of Greek art from the Neolithic to the Hellenistic period and also I almost started crying when I saw this vase in person for the first time, I've taught it a lot and as a textile person it's very important for textile history and I didn't expect to actually see it. (there are other vases and figurines I've taught at the Met and I got very excited about those too, but the textile one is just. a lot.)

also it turns out that I can look at a statue at a glance and identify it as Archaic, classical Greek, Hellenistic, or Roman without looking at the label -- I'm not actually an art historian so I can't get more specific than that most of the time but it's always nice to get the reminder that I did actually get something out of the PhD.

[ezekiel13]

Y’know Vulpes’ lottery?

I presume it is inspired by Elagabalus’ lotteries, where she killed people and stuff.

So. Trans fem Vulpes anyone?

[greypetrel]

French historians outraged by Ridley Scott portraying Napoleon as a tyrant be like...

Actual people who were military conquered by Napoleon, had a foreign ruler installing a random relative who knew nothing of the territory, installed a level of bureaucracy it's still hard to get rid of still today, destroyed monuments and infrastructures, stole artworks be like:

Tell me again: which European country was the one so feudal and with rules so strict and rulers so shitty that the people actually rioted and started a terror period?

You can have all the opinions you want about that movie and Ridley Scott's historical movies, but if your argument reaches defending Napoleon, maybe you should stop talking and read some books written in countries that were actually conquered by Napoleon.

[stillwithmeisonlyyou]

I'm actually crazy about boygenius like i know my hands are crawling while their hands are tied and the light is in their face and all but the recent licy and julien events have me on a chokehold

[theromaboo]

Something I forgot to mention during the eleventh day of Britannicus is that the video contains the best fake tweet I've ever seen.

NOOOOO!! This is iconic! I think about this whenever Suetonius is being Suetonius. A friend of a friend's friend. It's perfection.

[alatismeni-theitsa]

Ancient Greek and Roman music Masterpost

As our national epic, the Odyssey, did I'll start from the middle. Please listen to the sound of medieval Greek music and then come back. It's an exercise, I command you!

Middle Ages Greek music is speculated to be "slowed down ancient Greek music"! 😁 So, take notes on that!

Christodoulos Halaris - Anthology of Byzantine Secular Music

(Christodoulos Halaris was a prominent Greek composer, researcher, and musicologist. He focused on secular Byzantine and traditional music, incorporating his extensive research into a solid and singular musical language.)

After your warm-up (and perhaps some confusion) let's get into what you came here to see.

What Ancient Greek and Roman Music Sounded Like - A Beginner's Introduction

Α fantastic introduction by a composer, musician, and researcher who calls himself:

OKAY, OKAY, HE IS FARYA FARAJI, YOU GOT ME.

So, this is going to be another excellent video where he spits facts. He gives a great impression of how ancient Greek and Roman music sounded like.

And no, they didn't sound like the watered-down (north)-eurocentric "ancient Greek music" on youtube videos you find. (who's surprised at this point, after all this Northwestern appropriation) Unless they are made by Farya Faraji because… the man knows his shit (and our shit 😂)

By the way, I called it "watered down", not because I believe western music is lame, but because the performers apply western rules to ancient Greek music, stripping it of all the Heterophonic complexity.

In the video above, you'll learn how the lyre should actually be played!!! And what instruments have been in continuous use in Greece for more than 2.000 years! And see all the ways our ancient and traditional music is more complex than Western music - such as Western music can be more complex than ours in other ways! (as also stated in the video)

And before you ask: Why does ancient Greek and Byzantine/traditional Greek music sound Oriental? Well, that's just your ear and biases and Hollywood stereotypes, my dear friend. See, these sounds are not (just) Oriental! They are originally Greek, too!

Many tunes and the way of singing the West associates today with the Middle East came from the Greek world (where these tunes are still in use, mind you) or other Mediterranean countries. That's not to say that Middle Eastern nations didn't have these scales and twirls for a long time - because they did. That's their ancient music, too.

Please see the video below to make more sense of my ramblings:

The Greco-Roman Influence on Middle-Eastern Music

All of Farya's videos have their sources in the description so make sure to check them out!

Now you can better enjoy the Epitaph of Sekeilos you heard in the first Middle Ages video! You can also listen to another great version by Farya, where he uses the above ancient Greek principles he mentioned in his video. That's why his version actually feels fun to listen to, thank god! (Of course Chalaris also orchestrates the Epitaoh in an excellent way)

Personal commentary: I am happy to share Farya's work online because he put into words why reconstructions of ancient Greek music online don't sound Greek at all. Greeks have a hard time relating to it because... that's not our folk music. They sound boring like Chopin playing piano when he was 3 years old. (But by now you know why! 😉)

Of course, ancient and traditional Greek music are not identical and no one expects them to be. But given our history, our music history, and cultural evolution, we know the sounds of our music - as all people can identify the music of their land and area. I am glad my gut feeling was right and the music wasn't actually that simple. With the complexity of our ancient chants and the plethora of instruments we had in antiquity, there was no excuse for our ancient melodies to be that simple.

[spineless-lobster]

My biggest pet peeve in historical media is when no matter where or when a setting takes place, the actors are always british. I’m watching a documentary about the romanov’s WHY DO THEY SOUND LIKE THEY’RE IN PEAKY BLINDERS????

[poorlittleyaoyao]

5,000 people?

are you sure, buddy?

are you sure that's the number you wanna go with?

---

[ID: Two sets of screenshots from The Untamed. In the first set, Wei Wuxian sits on the rooftop of Nightless City and tells the ranks of cultivators preparing to fight him, "Don't forget that during the Sunshot Campaign, not just three thousand people, but I fought against even five thousand people on my own!"

The second set shows the Sunshot battlefield in question from two different angles. A few dozen combatants are visible at most.]

[taviokapudding]

Simon's joke of "soup of theseus" is so damn good & way more layered than most people think.

Okay so first- what is the ship of Theseus?

So amongst his many misadventures and legends the ship of theseus was a ship the Athenians believed connected them to the divine living person that was Theseus. The thing is, he was maybe Poseidon's adopted kid/the King if Athen's son and probably not real (or at least if he did his misadventures were super exaggerated as royals = divity stories are) but the fate the Athenians had for him & Apollo (the 6 labors is a fun legend that explains their connection and what the original ship may have been) was so intense, they would constantly give maintence as a form of religious worship to said ship on the island of Delos (where Apollo's most sacred sancutary is) every year it would dock to pay respects.

Btw we don't need to know the specifics of Theseus but he did infamously slay a minotar and Finn did have a good exchange with the Mannish Man to get the enchiridion aka the book that sets Betty & Simon on the paths they are on now so that's neat af

So if you've ever heard about the ship of Theseus being paradox- it comes from the critique that's always existed about that ship's maintenance & religious practices tldr if you are constantly replacing each rotted and borken part of a ship, is it still the same ship?

The soup is a paradox like the ship

That paradox exists in many many scifi and adventure stories like the Nier series & Ghost in the Shell but in this instance we got to first look at the joke literally. Farm world's Finn's wife's soup is the same as the ship. The original soup farm world HW made no longer exists on a technicality, but the way Finn and his kids continue to add on and consume the soup is exactly like the Athenians. It's about the intent of carrying on the memory and keeping the soup around to honor the dead rather than the soup's original recipe {which also is incredibly sad & imples that farmworld Finn is both coping and never learned the original soup recipe}. It's a beautiful way to honor their dead mom/wife and it makes you wonder if that Finn did die if his kids will continue the practice.

But the paradox goes beyond the soup & into our reality

A lot of people have noticed that Fionna's last name is Campbell and Campbells is a real soup brand that would've been around before the great mushroom war. When Marceline gets sick as a kid, Simon goes great lenghts to get her chicken soup- that only worked out because the primordial version of the Mother Gum assisting {which is extreme Bubbeline foreshadowing}. And in that scene the can low key is a campbell design. But what if I told you there's more?

In Cheers, the tv show Simon is seen constantly watching and referencing throughout the original run of Adventure Time & in the recent Fionna and Cake had Carla Tortelli work at a Canpbell's Factory.

Neat references aside the soup ends the moment the main trio hit the remote button and I have a BA in psychology & interest in childrens media and entertainment that I want to milk for once. Metaphorical intention is beyond relevant episode specifics but actually the foundation of Fionna and Cake when it comes to the paradox.

Simon making the soup of Theseus joke is the main problem Fionna and Cake has to address

If Simon can summon his & Prismo's au from his head without proper MMS (Magic, Madness, and Sadness) where does Simon the human start and Ice King end?

As viewers who grew up alongside the series, the majority of 25+ watchers are finding Simon, older Finn, and Fionna painfully relatable because good fucking god we are all traumatized because of the ongoing pandemic.

If you want to focus on the main topic you can skip this part. But if you want to get very serious for a minute, please stay. The majority of people wont to accept what I just said about the pandemic being ongoing because global governments pretending the pandemic is over, the rise of depression and escapism in real time at a social level at a global level but especially in the US where the series is being made, and the daily interactions we have with most people refusing to mask up {with a violent reaction} when there still isn't a cure for COVID has created the perfect enviroment for most people to not accept change or crave extreme change. Fionna and Cake tackles these 2 very common forms of how depression tends to manifest when it's not fully manic to be displayed through Simon (self isolation from poor coping due to loss, detachment from society, dwelling on the past to the point it effects social interactions, extreme forms of religious practice, etc.) and Fionna/Finn (pretending everything is fine, avoidance, going through the bare minimum motions to survive, escapsim and dream of grandure, not caring about sel preservation, no/lack of self control with sweets/coffee, etc.). And I've noted there's a subset of AT viewers who don't relate or find the depections too real to the point they're upset the show's tone isn't as light hearted as AT. The thing is when a global disabling event happens, unless you were under 10 when it happened and even then it's a 50/50 because you probably did lose or know somebody who did die these last several years, you will have some kind of trauma response to it whether you like it or not. Hell, some of you unknowlingly have a gap in your memory about 2020 specifically due to inconsistent sleep schedules that have nothing to do with the shrinking of the brain mass COVID causes that we all call "brain fog" and now that I pointed it out you're probably going to go stare at a wall for 5 mins {sorry btw, doubly if you have long COVID and this is how you found out what brain fog partially is}. As someone who's been dealing with depression since I was a child, it's okay to be not okay given the last several years and doubly if you've been conscious long enough to see the US freefall into fascism too {which I hope encourages those who weren't aware that's been happening to go look into that because we can't get into it right now}. Because I unfortunately know what manic depression can look like - if you find yourself relating to Simon a little too much during ep 3, please talk to somebody who is licensed and trained to do so {not me, I haven't done suicide prevention work since 2017 and am not licensed- I genuienly won't be enough of a resource} okay? Don't throw away yourself nor change yourself for others only. You need to work to accept the past, move on to live in the present, and change yourself for yourself. It won't be easy and resources are out there to not do it alone, alright?

Becuase of how paradoxial and fluid mental health (espeically undiagnosed depression) can be and how AT has it's own version with MMS, could Simon have unconscious MMS still because of Betty's with without a battery but can't tap into it because of his mental state? And could Ice King as we once knew him even be considered a proper person Simon could return too?

The original wish of why Ice King's appearance & abilities is the way it is IS because of Evergreen's impression on Gunter {Evergreen was one of the ice elementals of the past btw- go watch the original Adventure Time for that context}. So Ice King isn't even an original character, just the crown building off the wishes and manifestations of each bearer by emulating a warped version of Evergreen. And that's the main reason why I speculate Ice Thing aka Gunter the Penguin is chill af to the point he got married and can exist with less gems. His wish didn't build off of power to protect Marceline (Simon) nor the power to copy Evergreen (Original Gunter).

As the main trio jump from connected universe to connected universe, more Simons and crowns will appear that are even more removed from our Ooo's crown and it's version of Ice King or Ice Prince or Winter King will only manifest because of the prior and current wishes made. So if Simon does get a crown that isn't the Ooo crown, will the Ice King that once existed even be THE Ice King he wants to be? And will Simon want to be Ice King or an Ice King when the trio do return to his Ooo?

The crown and it's many versions is a paradox that can only be resolved if Simon and Fionna can work together but also set aside their depression to address what they both really want and what that wish's intention will do to themselves and those around them. In short, shit's deep

I applaud the team for Fionna and Cake for tackling such a layered problem and I'm excited to see how Simon's soup of emotions, Fionna's growth, & magic crown of Theseus is addressed.